I think the problem here is that you seem to have a split personality in posting. Often you’ll open a discussion with what are, frankly, apolitical (and often inaccurate) insults about SSY members, their class background, the way they speak and dress etc. Then when this gets people riled up (presumably what you were trying to achieve anyway), you try and back away, and say you’re just interested in healthy debate, you’re the reasonable one etc. You can’t have it both ways. You say you want fraternal debate but your behaviour indicates otherwise.

On the issue of violence, I’ll state it again-I’m not a pacifist. I believe in the position “self-defence is no offence”. One of the first things that helped get me political was an awareness of the case of Satpal Ram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satpal_Ram). However, I also don’t believe in fetishising violence, and indeed think that this is a major problem with many sections of the left. Tactics need to be judged on the situation, and imo SSY members, as part of GAFA and EAFA, have deployed the right tactics for the situation against the SDL (albeit more effectively in Edinburgh, having learnt from the experience in Glasgow.) Going out looking for a fight would have been the WRONG tactics in these situations.

Violence is a serious business, and when it’s necessary it’s not something to be gloried in. I was recently listening to a documentary about the history of anti-fascist organising in London in the 70s (which I intend to post here when I can make the getiplayer thing work). In that situation, with gangs of racists roaming the streets at night looking to attack people, self defence training and an organised street presence were clearly necessary. (Although btw that was always accompanied with mass mobilisations to occupy the streets.) That’s not the situation we’re in right now.

What’s completely unhelpful and infantile is people coming on to go “you middle class students aren’t as hard as us.” It’s fantasising about violence, and doesn’t take us any further forward in terms of serious politics.

LydiaT im not so sure the EDL/SDL are more than capable of mobilising without police being informed or aware. Thats a tactic that they hold inreserve but one that im sure they now feel more confident of using when its tactically advantageous to them.

I cant see the SSY having any need or desire to hold anything more than a placard, a leaflet or paper.
On 3. of course.

On 4 thats probably true although what happened when the NF had their meeting in Glasgow recently? Youse wisely looked at the balance of forces and the possibility of violence and didnt go to their meeting place. Im no fool and certainly not advocating taking action that could result in the left/republicans etc getting seriously hurt or arrested.

I dont think im elitist, although i do believe theres a place for tactical flexibility and actions undertaken and carried out by certain comrades eg during the miners strike, the workers who carried out sabotage against scabs and scab haulage companies etc

Let me try to make this clear to you: You aren’t any different from us. If anyone’s being an elitist cunt, it’s you. Are you trying to tell us that you would go ahead with seven fash yourself? Tell you what, you tell me when it’s happening and we’ll come see you chib ‘em aw maaaaan, since you’re like a bajillion times more working class than us.

Except that its an issue for us. What you’ve said here shows that you (still) don’t get the purpose of SSY. It’s not some political training ground to groom us until we’re ready to play with the older children; SSY is an autonomous, self-organising youth group in the same vein as the SSP Women’s Network. We recognise that young people are discriminated against in Scotland today, and that we need a space to ourselves to discuss and fight our own battles against that discrimination, and to provide a space for political activity that is exclusively for young people.

I really do have to ask, what is the obsession with us? You’ve been coming on our forums and blogs to pick fights and call people middle class students for years, and you’ve been getting told to piss off for years. What is it about us?

[NOTE ADDED BY ADMIN: This is incorrect - SSY has no minimum age limit, under 16 year olds can and do participate in SSY.]

You talk about discussion on programme and methods but I dont know what else we could have done differently. The facts are most people on the Left are like most normal people – they don’t go out and get into fights all the time and they dont actively seek getting into them the way some of the fascists might do.

This is because folk round about and in the SDL are asocial nutters who often dont have the basic respect for other folk most working people have and dont see anything unacceptable about living your life fighting wi folk all the time. Different people have different roles and you need to accept that the majority of folk who go on anti fascist demos probably arent psychos like the SDL, and make sure you have the numbers so if they try anything physical they wont win. I think weve successfully done that on both occasions.

Sarah they killed who they intended to kill, the pizza guys are ok.

Jack only ever heard that expression from middle class lefts, if the cap fits…. So you think socialism can be achieved by non violent means exclusively? Do you just shout at fascists when behind police lines? Will they always be there to protect the left? As for what ive got behind me, im sure you can get that info easily enough on the net. Whats madcap about organising collectively but realising there are different roles for comrades? And is your brand doing so well? We could at least have a dialogue around programme and methods? Im trying to see what the SSY could give to republican youth.

Liam- students are often working class but im sure youd agree that student life and politics is often lifestylism and a conveyor belt into the middle class professions. Im trying to build amongst the non student working class- amongst workers and the unemployed because i still believe that the workplace and the working class community is where we will build the forces necessary for the defeat of capitalism and its state.

Lynsey of course they can and the ruling class has always wanted a more educated working class and has for a long time allowed entry to HE to a section of working class youth.